Dr. Rose, you are an avowed heavy metal fan and have written books, including ‘HEAVY METAL BRANDS: What companies can learn from heavy metal bands such as Metallica, Iron Maiden and Motörhead’. So do we also need rock stars at the top? Guys who are loud and provocative, who are in the public eye, who are unconventional artists? And sometimes toxic like Elon Musk?
With Elon Musk, of course, you can also see the negative consequences very clearly, and not just in terms of bad press and the share price. Tesla has also lost its technological edge. One of the reasons for this may be that he has taken care of many other things and neglected his core business. As far as the rock stars at the top are concerned, of course it depends very much on what kind of company we are talking about and what stage of development it is in. The person at the top must always fit the times and the current state and goals of the company. That’s why I find it a little difficult to give an answer.
Rock star doesn’t just mean pose and appearance, but also attitude and approach.
The book I wrote together with Götz Ulmer was less about employee management and more about the strategic positioning and brand communication of companies.
I found it original that they also performed with this theme in Wacken. I thought it was original that they also performed with this theme in Wacken.
That’s when I presented my second heavy metal book – ‘Hard, Heavy & Happy – Heavy Metal and the Art of Living Well’. It’s more about the scene and what it feels like to be a metal fan. What do you do with the music, what does the music do to you? And how does heavy metal help us to lead a halfway decent life? So it’s almost a psychological book, without being a guidebook.
How was the reading received alongside all the hard rock acts?
There is a small stage at Wacken called ‘Welcome to the Jungle’. It’s reserved for spoken word stories like this. Other people also read there, and live podcasts take place there. That’s why it wasn’t so unusual, but it was always cool anyway. I’m doing it again this year with my new book, which has just come out. ‘Loud.Strong.Life’. It’s a biography of the metal icon Sabina Classen. One of the early and few women in the scene, alongside the even better-known Doro Pesch. More for insiders.
I find the pursuit of profit helpful at first. We talk a lot about sustainability these days. I think corporate sustainability in terms of returns is also incredibly important.
Another of your books is called ‘Lead with purpose – How to become the leader you’ve always wanted to be’. What is the purpose of a company?
I once attended a lecture at INSEAD. The lecturer was quite unconventional and the day was supposed to be about finance. But we were suddenly talking about very basic things and he said something like this: ‘People just want to have their stuff and a market economy is the best way to get it. Despite all the disadvantages of this system, I am a convinced market economist. I believe that entrepreneurship is simply the best and most efficient way to provide people with beautiful things. I also find the pursuit of profit helpful. We talk a lot about sustainability these days. I think entrepreneurial sustainability in terms of returns is also incredibly important.
Years ago at the Gottlieb Duttweiler Institute’s trade conference, a speaker asked the expectant audience: ‘What is our purpose?
And?
‘To have fun and make money’. I thought that was as simple as it was incisive. You are a bit of an expert on ‘to have fun’. Or have I misunderstood positive psychology?
I don’t like it when positive psychology is reduced to this topic. It’s one of many, many aspects that we look at. First and foremost, positive psychology is a field of research, a sub-discipline of academic psychology, from which recommendations can of course be derived.
And that’s also what they do.
But it’s not about being happy! Especially not in crisis situations. If someone has an acute cardiac arrest, for example, it is of course helpful if someone has a defibrillator to hand. If a company gets into difficulties, it may also be advisable to use tough methods to reorganize and restructure. However, the methods that help in an exceptional situation are not the same as those that lead to success in a normal situation. The defibrillator will not help me to change my lifestyle or exercise more. The reorganizer will probably not be able to help me develop a new strategy and redefine my business model.
If I understand you correctly, principles from positive psychology should apply.
Clinical psychology deals with the recognition and treatment of mental illness, depression and disorders. In other words, with the negative deviation from a normal state, with the aim of bringing people back to it. Positive psychology, on the other hand, is aimed at people who are healthy in the broadest sense, and tries to give them a boost, ensure personal development or improve management relationships in the company. It is not about wanting to turn people into “happy shiny unicorns”, but about focusing on people’s strengths and not their deficits.
These are not exactly easy times. We are dealing with a generally negative mix of recession, transformation pressure, the turnaround, Trumponomics and so on. With all the consequences that this has for the mood and situation of many people and therefore also companies. What can good leadership do in a situation like this?
It is even more crucial. In situations like this, it’s important to explore the tension between authenticity and professionalism. As a manager, you can’t just stand at the front and say: ‘Guys, it sucks, and I suck too’. Professionalism demands that you spread optimism and perhaps even become a bit of an actor sometimes.
Of course, there is a level of optimism where it becomes so unrealistic that people grab their heads. But letting yourself down, fraternizing with the team and wallowing in misery, that’s not possible either.
However, employees can certainly sense when the boss is glossing over things. Such positivism can also have a toxic effect.
That’s true. I can still clearly remember a situation when I was still at Bertelsmann. I was in charge of a team that was extremely overloaded due to the huge workload. We asked for reinforcements for months, which were finally approved. And on the day the new employee was due to sign her contract, my superiors told me that the new position had already been eliminated for budget reasons. And I had to go to my team with this message. That was a difficult moment because I realized that I really owed my people something and had to impose something on them in my role. There were quite a few who were already close to burnout, and as a manager you also have a responsibility. And then of course you talk about it, okay, can we leave something out again, can we be more efficient? Blah blah blah. I became quite cynical about it, which I think is understandable.
How did you resolve it then?
At some point after a few days, my team sent someone to me. The lady used to be a board secretary, she had sharp elbows and no inhibitions. And she gave me the following message: ‘Nico, we know how you feel, we think it sucks just as much. We’re mentally at the same point now. But if you let yourself down now too, and if we don’t get any more energy and encouragement from you, then it’s really over here’. She basically said: ‘Pull yourself together and be professional.
Is too much empathy harmful?
In my authentic state, I would probably have let myself down even more back then. My team basically reminded me that professionalism in this situation requires a different kind of behavior. Of course, there is a level of optimism where it becomes so unrealistic that people grab their heads. But letting yourself down, fraternizing with the team and wallowing in misery, that’s not possible either. And I think you have to constantly explore this area of tension.
Do you have any tips on how to lead teams through uncertain phases?
There is a term in research that I really like, it’s called sense-making. It’s about consciously exchanging ideas with others about changes and developments: What does this mean for us now? When a lot changes quickly, we often have the feeling that we don’t have time for this collective pause. Unfortunately, this usually leads to us losing track of things even more. It’s a cliché, but I would say, especially when you’re in a hurry, slow down. Take time for collective sense-making.
And if it doesn’t make sense?
Of course, even as a manager, I don’t always have all the information. The natural impulse is to wait until I have understood it and then take people along with me. But that usually happens far too late.
So it’s better to admit ignorance?
Yes. I think it’s totally okay to say: ‘Dear people, I don’t know yet. ‘Yet’ is an important word in this context! Because of course we don’t want to appear hopeless. I don’t want to walk away from the communication, but rather go straight in when I’m feeling insecure. That would be a great recommendation.
Most managers are also emotionally affected by crises themselves. Can you prepare for such situations or train for them?
There are personality traits that are innate and there’s not much you can do about them. Some people are simply more emotionally stable and stress-resistant than others – they are better able to deal with crises and uncertainty. And then there are things that you can cultivate. Intellectual humility, i.e. acknowledging ignorance, is almost always helpful for managers. The simplest thing you can do is what I call WWW: ‘What Went Well’. Focus your attention for at least a few minutes a day on the things that are perhaps going really well right now despite everything. In the morning on the way to work, think about what are the three things I’m looking forward to apart from the few stupid appointments? In the evening, take stock of the three things that made you happy today despite everything. And if only the schnitzel in the canteen was particularly tasty.
There is nothing wrong with a table football table, nothing wrong with a fruit basket, nothing wrong with massages or company parties. The only thing you can’t derive from it is economic success.
Good old Think Positive…
I know it sounds banal, but research actually shows that this has a very clear mood-boosting effect. Or take the typical meeting. Instead of just rehashing problems, it might be advisable for everyone to start by talking about one or two things that have gone well recently. It’s not just about the positive mood, but we know from research that positive feelings strengthen cohesion and promote creative processes.
At the end of the day, companies are still not cuddly zoos, are they? It’s not uncommon for younger companies to have the institution of the Feelgood Manager. What do you think of this concept and the ideas behind it?
There’s nothing wrong with table football, there’s nothing wrong with a fruit basket, there’s nothing wrong with massages or company parties. The only thing you can’t expect from it is commercial success. I’m a psychologist by training, but I did my doctorate in controlling. It was an accident, but a bit of business administration has stuck. Economic success is usually the result of competitive advantages. If you employ a feel-good manager to make people feel good, okay. If they expect this to make the company successful, then I would say please go back to university.
The fact that people are doing well may not be the sole cause, but it is also a prerequisite for success.
Of course it’s incredibly important. But what does doing well mean? That people smile all day? No, work can of course not be fun, and work can also be hard. And work can also be such that I swear from time to time. A lot of the stuff that comes under feel-good management falls under “cushioning the hamster wheel a bit better”. People have shit jobs, it’s badly managed, the corporate culture is weird. Everyone is close to burnout, but they get pizza and neck massages on Fridays. That can’t be the case. For me, feel-good management is symptomatic treatment. It’s better to invest time and money in good training for managers and in diagnostics to ensure that everyone does the job they really like and where they have their strengths. It’s about creating the best possible fit between people and tasks. And if that is the case, then we can also talk about table football and fruit baskets.
Since the coronavirus crisis, hybrid working has become the norm in many functions. Decentralized working does not facilitate leadership. Or is it just different now and you just have to adapt?
Books have been published saying that we now have to “lead digitally”. I’ve never understood what “digital leadership” is supposed to be. There was no such thing as leaders managed by steam engine in the past. It’s about media skills. In other words, how do I use media in such a way that I achieve the intended effect and avoid certain side effects. In my opinion, what constitutes good leadership and bad leadership hasn’t changed much in recent years. If I’m an ass as a boss or employee, I’m also an ass in a video conference.
But emotional closeness is still not so easy to create.
For managers, working from home means a lot of video conferences. And of course we don’t come across quite the same way on video as we do in real life. I can’t smell people, which is sometimes good, but it’s part of the overall picture. I can’t completely decipher body language either. We don’t come across as energetic as we do in a live situation. I once had a workshop with eBay during the coronavirus era. Oliver Klinck, the head of Germany at the time, said an intelligent sentence to say goodbye, which summarizes the research on this topic well: ‘We have to be ten percent nicer online’. In other words, we have to be nicer, more likeable and more energetic in order to come across more or less as we do in real life. By the way, most people are far too close to their video camera. How many nostrils have I had to look at in recent years? I only get that close to people in person when I want to kiss or hit them.
Many people look at you from below, which is quite unpleasant, even if you don’t have a double chin.
It’s true, the cameras are often too low. That means I look down at the person opposite me. I’m also always far enough away during presentations so that people can see my gestures. Without the gestures, an important part is simply missing. I also use a ring light that flatters the face. I would advise companies not to be stingy when it comes to technology. And I would advise managers to become a bit of an actor. In other words, be lively, make extra large gestures and consciously intonate a little more. That won’t eliminate all difficulties, but it will make an impact.
Nevertheless, it will be more difficult for managers to emotionally engage their team and get them behind them if there is no chat in between. In some video calls, you don’t even say good morning anymore.
One recommendation really is: don’t skip the small talk. And of course you need regular face-to-face meetings. Trust still tends to be built through personal contact.
What skills do you think will be particularly important for managers in the future – especially in view of the current uncertainty and change?
It is important to be open to new topics such as AI and to deal with the effects on business models. Otherwise, you might be out of business in five years’ time. But this doesn’t change the relevance of good leadership.
What does that mean?
The most important skill of a good manager is to really trust other people. If I don’t trust them enough, then I have to control them. Then I build systems around it. These systems are slow and expensive. That’s why my biggest recommendation to any manager would be to trust two percent too much when in doubt. If it then goes wrong three times out of a hundred, you are certainly resilient enough to deal with it. But that’s still better than trusting one hundred percent of people two percent too little. The ability to trust is crucial. I can think of very few contexts where this is wrong.
Dr. Nico Rose works as a freelance author and sparring partner for people and organizations. From 2019 to the beginning of 2022, he was Professor of Business Psychology at ISM Dortmund. He previously worked for Bertelsmann, most recently as Vice President on the HR Executive Board. Rose studied psychology in Münster and received his doctorate in business administration from EBS Oestrich-Winkel. He also studied positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania. His seventh book, ‘Hard, Heavy & Happy’, is a SPIEGEL bestseller. He is a columnist for WirtschaftsWoche. The metal fan and father of two lives in Münster.
